An Interview with a Former Primal Therapist Trainee
On August 19th 2007 a former primal therapy trainee interviewed another former therapist trainee. The interviewee was a trainee (named TR here) in the 1990s, while the interviewer (INT) was trainee in the 2000s. The interviewee TR was both a primal participant and a primal therapist trainee at Dr Arthur Janov’s Primal Center in Venice, CA.
Some details had to be modified to protect the identity of the person but that modification did not result in loss of accuracy. This interview was recorded on audio media.
At the start of the interview TR stressed he wanted to communicate to people that once you accept primal therapy doesn’t work it frees you. Otherwise you can get stuck in it, he said, and you can’t then look at alternatives.
From talking to TR I found out that things in the 1990s were not much better than the 2000s. TR confirmed that the Primal Center had struck him as cult-like and that there were indeed personal attacks between group members. These personal attacks affected him, he said, and it continued to affect him even to this day.
In particular, despite TR practicing a very altruistic profession now, it still affects him that he was called uncaring and he was unfairly blamed in group therapy by participants for the decline of another participant. He indicated he still unconsciously feels he needs to prove he does care, and strives to do so, and those attacks in group therapy stayed with him.
TR said that for many people, including himself, participating in primal therapy may have been traumatic in of itself. For example he didn’t want to even look at or discuss in detail the testimonial he wrote in Janov’s book (Why You Get Sick…, 1999) because he said it may bring upsetting memories back of the time in primal. He also said that when he hears screaming or deep crying now he gets ‘flashbacks’ to the primal groups he was in; although he did say he is more comfortable with such deep feelings than the general population may be.
He left the training voluntarily. We discussed that contrary to primal legend that was circulating in primal fanboy circles, most trainees leave voluntarily, and are not dismissed because they don’t pass some sort of test, or are not “real” or feeling enough. He went on to say “it was triggering me too much to be in the training.” When asked what had been “triggering” him he went on to talk about unethical behavior, personal attacks, and a couple of suicides. He said he knew of two therapists who slept with patients, one of which was fired, and the other was not. The latter left the Center at a later date. He also knew of a further different case where a therapist married a former patient, and continued to practice at the Center for a few years. We both observed that as far as we knew from the time we were there, there was not one male primal therapist we could think of that hadn’t had a romantic relationship with a woman who had previously been a primal therapy patient.
Regarding what he observed in the training, he said that he was upset at how Arthur Janov would be rough with therapists sometimes. He didn’t like the way Janov thought he knew the answers for other people’s lives.
TR revealed that he wrote a testimonial endorsing primal therapy that was printed in the book Why You Get Sick and How You Get Well (Janov, 1999). For that testimonial, he said, he received compensation in the form of free therapy time. He said that Arthur Janov came back to him after the first draft of the testimonial and asked him to “write more about first-line.” First line is primal therapy jargon for birth trauma or other early-life physical traumas. However, TR did not think the supposed improvement he was writing about was actually anything to do with “first-line.” However, TR went ahead and rewrote it, and the testimonial was printed in the book, and it indicated his problem had roots in “first-line” birth trauma. TR told the interviewer that he ”just wrote it and got my free group” therapy session. At the moment, he has not given me permission to reveal which testimonial it was so as to avoid any social retribution from primal people who may recognize him.
First we talked about the testimonial.
Following are some excerpts from the interview, interspersed with paraphrase:
INTERVIEWER (INT): Was it your idea that your [disorder] came out of birth trauma?
EX-TRAINEE (TR): No, when I wrote my first testimonial it was not even mentioning it. He [Janov] came to me and was saying well, could you write more about first line…
We transitioned to talk about the value of not wasting time on primal therapy. TR said that the reason he was able to go back to school and get a professional job after primal therapy is precisely because he stopped primal therapy and stopped “going for feelings”:
TR: “You have to go out and study, practice and do your job, that’s real life….I can’t use primal at all. This idea of fixing myself is terrible; my way of being is [who I am].”
He said that he didn’t like it that Janov had a fixed idea about how people should be, for example that women always “need a man” and the fact that “he doesn’t like intellectual people.” TR said it was intolerant. He also commented how issues were sometimes not discussed fully or communicated well at the Center.
The conversation inevitable came around to the most obvious of questions:
INT: Would you recommend primal therapy to anybody?
TR: I would be cautious about it and warn people about it.
When asked about whether he would recommend primal therapy for depression or anxiety:
TR: …opening up your defenses and looking at all that stuff will actually made you more anxious and more depressed…you’re going to be more anxious you’re going to be more depressed… I knew people who didn’t get better and ended up killing themselves… I knew 2 people… [it was in the] late 1990s.
TR went on to discuss the 2 people he knew who had committed, and then transitioned to talk about how he had read about a different type of therapy before he came to primal therapy:
TR: [Before therapy] I read this study done of people with [a specific disorder]. It was a scientific way to look at [the disorder]; it is not like what Janov does
We discussed if there was anything in primal therapy that is beneficial, but is perhaps common to other therapies, and he said:
TR: I think talking to people is a very therapeutic thing in itself
INT: So your [disorder name omitted to protect anonymity] was helped just by talking?
TR: Yes
INT: Was it helped by first line feelings? [this is primal therapy lingo, and usually means birth trauma relivings]
TR: I don’t think so, I’m not sure, I think it got resolved before I got to those first line feelings….It doesn’t even match the theory, [my disorder] disappeared before I got to first line feelings. Art [Janov] never asked me any follow-up.
TR: And then [Janov] asked me to write this article, so he is after his own ideas. It is so obvious when I think about it now… I wrote this article and then he said to me I need to talk about first line about it. It’s his idea, that it is first line related, so he wants me to write about it.
The interview changed direction away from the testimonial, and addressed another question about primal therapy:
INT: Are there elements of primal that is like a cult?
TR: I think so, I think so, I remember being with another patient while I was in therapy and we were laughing about it because we said ‘okay we have Art [Janov] and he has big white hair and he has this big white jeep, and then here we are cleaning this big place for nothing’, and we laughed.
INT: So it’s intelligent people knowing kind of what’s going on?
TR: Yeah, and we looked at each other, and I said “yeah it’s a cult and we are in it!” and we laughed. We could sense there were elements of it definitely.
The interview moved on to discuss feelings in therapy. Here he talks about the effect of going through deep feeling “relivings” in primal therapy:
TR: You feel kind of better, there’s something about it, I don’t think people would keep doing it, it’s like drugs. There is something good at one point, so that’s what your looking for.
After discussing deep feeling expression, the interviewer went on to ask:
INT: Were there personal attacks in therapy?
TR: There are definitely personal attacks, that’s how the things start [how feelings start in group therapy]. It’s definitely.
After the two former primal therapist trainees had agreed on that point, the interviewer inquires to find out if they agree about ethical breaches:
INT: Did you see or hear of unethical things like I did, or is it just me?
TR: No, I saw that too. I heard about therapists sleeping with their patients… 2 different therapists… one was fired but the other carried on working there for a while…
INT: But eventually both stopped working there?
TR: Right they stopped. With one, they knew about it, but they did not fire him on the spot, it just kind of got hidden and worked out. It was unethical once you know it is [going on]. What happened is that they controlled everything because I think they were really scared of the patient complaining. Once they knew the ethical part would be to just fire that person, and that’s it, you just make it open and you just say this happened.
…The boundaries are very loose in this place… and it reminds me of patients working for the Center. Patients should just get the therapy and leave, and not get involved in the maintenance of the place.
The conversation continued into related territory:
INT: Did a therapist marry his patient?
TR: Yes
INT: He was able to continue being a therapist?
TR: Yes
[for a few years, this particular therapist no longer works at the center]
The interview transitioned into a discussion about the worry behind publishing material that criticises primal therapy on the Internet:
TR: I feel like if I put it out there, in the primal community, people will know when I talk and where its coming from. You would have to change lots of things for people not to recognize me, the reason I am reticent about going on the website is that I don’t want to get that c*** at me [referring to threatening letters received by the interviewer]. I want to be out of this community, and when I put it on the screen I’m not out of the community. I’m back in it because they will read it…and I don’t want to have any contact. My answer is to just let them believe what they want to believe. … If I start doing this I’m again in the primal community and it is the same thing that comes back at me and I’m sick of it.
He goes on to say:
TR: That’s how strong this place is, putting details on there, they will probably know who I am.…. This is what you deal with, I don’t want that to happen to me, and if I do speak up, they know your feelings. … that’s a sign of a cult.
…I don’t want to deal with what you are dealing with right now [the interviewer had received threats after publishing material on the Internet]. That’s the thing, the threatening letters…It bothers me that it works, I know when I am silent I perpetuate this behavior, they’re winning, and I’m bothered by it because I want them to stop doing that bullshit so I have to find a way, because they are winning on me right now because I am silent, I know that.
… But I don’t know if I’m ready to do what you’re doing, it’s a lot.
INT: They have much less power than we think.
TR: Yes, I believe that too
TR goes on to say:
TR: I am still in contact with someone who is still in primal and I never mention to him I don’t believe in it anymore, I say I’m not going to feel my feelings anymore. When he talks about it, I just listen like a friend.
INT: Did you find people to be judgmental in primal [therapy]?
TR: It’s intolerance
The conversation naturally comes around to the problem of primal therapy participants thinking they can “feel” so much that it gives them extra insight or intuition:
INT: What about people using Primal intuition?
TR: Oh yes, they have an idea of where you should go [in your feelings], what it’s all about, and when you don’t do it…
INT: Even patients do that?
TR: Oh yes, you get into that position of what you are not doing. I had a trainee who was doing that with me and saying “that’s your stuff” and it got to me like I’m not doing it right.
…There’s lots of thing about group in which they watch each other to see if somebody is really going for it.
INT: I never wanted to get involved in that…
TR: Yeah it’s like somebody is attacking you when they are saying something like that so you become a victim and say I’m going for my feelings then, or you attack back and say this person is not going for their feelings.
INT: You know that trainee you mentioned earlier who said “it’s your stuff” to you? You know what’s really sad about that is: probably a couple of years before he or she said that, that probably happened to him.
TR: Yes, your completely right. It’s a perpetuation…yeah…
The interviewee, TR talks about how following the process of being told ‘it’s your stuff’ and then turning it into childhood feelings leads to ”you were kind of accepted in the group.” He talks about other related problems:
TR: It’s just almost impossible because you go there and try to talk about the stuff you want to talk about, and it’s not what they want, and then your not part of the group anymore. I didn’t want to go there because it just felt something is wrong. I’m thinking this, and those people are saying that its wrong, and I should feel my feelings and that won’t go away. But I was so, I found myself more sure of who I was and they couldn’t take that away from me.
… I came out of my own therapy because I was doing the same thing over and over. And this time I would not feel better afterwards… Primal people are kind of merciless, like when they go for their feeling watch out…
… once you get out of the primal community you’re like wow, something was wrong; you just get immune to this. I think for me I accepted that because in my family it was like that.
INT: For my first week, I was protected from that, I remember [my therapist] showing [a senior therapist] how my face had changed, but that could have been just confirmation bias or relaxation from endorphins,
TR: Yeah endorphins, I get that biking, its cheaper!
INT: That’s the thing about primal therapy, if there is some benefit it’s still too expensive
TR: Its very expensive
INT: Yeah, for the benefit that you get. There are cheaper psychologists available with Ph.D.s rather than Psych Assistants. They may be better for people because I see primal theory as being a problem. There were free therapists available sometimes in college, and when I believed in primal, I would avoid that.
TR: Yeah!
INT: I did avoid them
TR: Me too!
The discussion turns back to the earlier topic of cultism:
INT: … They allow you to joke about it being like a religion or cult.
TR: YES! That’s true, that’s true [laughs]
INT: And they even joke about it
TR: So it means its okay…that’s why it’s powerful, it’s not this thing you can easily identify as a cult. You can still joke about it, it’s so weird.
INT: … you can be mad about [the senior therapists] all you want.
TR: You can come in and feel it.
INT: But you have to change it into feelings.
TR: That’s where the mess up starts, they would say something like: “you’re just going to HAVE to go for your feelings, and it will have to stop being with us”… There’s nothing wrong with what’s going on with the Center because it’s all feelings in the past. That’s to me where the mess up is.
The interview changes direction and the question of why we didn’t leave comes up:
INT: Was there anytime where you thought “I’m going to leave now” but you didn’t?
TR: Yes, early on it was. Art [Janov] came in and told the therapist [I] had to change what [I] was doing. It was going well before that, and after I was just lost.
INT: How did you end up staying?
TR: I thought that “well I need to go for my feelings” and all of that is just feelings and I’ll get through it. I wanted to leave the training, I thought it was just crazy and it overwhelmed me. Also I felt I was getting in the clique.
INT: I remember being told in the training that we were a really good group now, not like the last lot.
TR: Yeah, Oh yeah, we got that too [a few years earlier]
The discussion transitioned to talk about the commonly used therapeutic move in primal therapy of the therapist telling a complaining patient that “it’s a feeling”:
TR: At one point you become like “Hey, I’m telling you something”
We continue, and we start to talk about what it was like once TR had stopped primal therapy:
TR: I found that once I stopped [primal therapy] I could relate to other people better. That was a challenge. And I realized I have to stop doing this because I’m not going to go anywhere.
The interview came to an end shortly after this. The interviewer and interviewee wanted to communicate some of the things the observed. By doing this it might make some other potential primal therapy fan’s life a little better than they would have been had these experiences not been exposed.
