Former_Trainee_Interview
Former Trainee Interview
On August 19th 2007 I interviewed someone who was both a primal patient and
a primal therapist trainee in the 1990s at the Dr Arthur Janov’s Primal Center. This write up has been modified to protect the identity of the person but that modification did not result in loss of accuracy. I will call him TR (for trainee) in this write up. I confirm that TR is not an author of this website, just in case some similarities give that impression. A lot of this interview is recorded on audio media. The reason for some of the cut off audio quotes is because the recording device was unfortunately set to edit out silence and it ended up cutting out some words. I’ll get better audio on the next interview.
TR stressed he wanted to communicate to people that once you accept primal therapy doesn’t work it frees you. Otherwise you can get stuck in it and you can’t then look at alternatives.
From talking to TR I found out that things in the 1990s were not much better than the 2000s. TR confirmed that the Primal Center had struck him as cult-like and that there were indeed personal attacks between group members. These personal attacks affected him he said, even to this day. In particular, despite doing a very altruistic profession now, it still affects him that he was called uncaring and he was unfairly blamed in group by participants for the decline of another participant. He indicated he still unconsciously feels he needs to prove he does care, and strives to do so, and those attacks in group stayed with him.
There were a few indications that like many people, his time in primal therapy may have been traumatic in of itself. For example he didn’t want to look at or discuss in detail the testimonial he wrote in Janov’s book (Why You Get Sick…) because he said it may bring upsetting memories back of the time in primal, he said. He also said that when he hears screaming or deep crying now he gets ‘flashbacks’ to the primal groups he was in; although he did say he is more comfortable with such deep feelings than the general population may be.
He left the training voluntarily (as most do, it seems none or very few are actually dismissed from the training, all apparently choose to leave). He said “it was triggering me too much to be in the training.” On further investigation it became apparent that what was “triggering” him was actually things such as the unethical behavior, personal attacks and a couple of suicides. He said he knew of two therapists who slept with patients, one of which was fired, and the other was not. The latter left the Center at a later date. He also knew of a further different case where a therapist married a former patient, and continued to practice at the Center for a few years.
Also in the training, he said that he was upset at how Arthur Janov would be rough with therapists sometimes. He didn’t like the way Janov thought he knew the answers for other people’s lives.
He wrote a testimonial that was printed in the book Why You Get Sick and How You Get Well (Janov 1999). For that testimonial he received free therapy time. He said that Arthur Janov came back to him after the first draft of the testimonial and asked him to “write more about first line.” He did not think the improvement he was writing about was actually anything to do with first line. However, he rewrote it, and the testimonial as printed in the book indicated his problem had roots in first line (birth trauma). He “just wrote it and got my free group” he said. At the moment, he has not given me permission to reveal which testimonial it was so as to avoid any social retribution from primal people who may recognize him. He may give permission for that at a later date.
Following are some excerpts from the interview, interspersed with comments:
INTERVIEWER (INT): Was it your idea that your [disorder] came out of birth trauma?
EX-TRAINEE (TR): No, when I wrote my first testimonial it was not even mentioning it. He [Janov] came to me and was saying well, could you write more about first line…
TR said that the reason he was able to go back to school and get a professional job after primal therapy is precisely because he STOPPED primal therapy and stopped going for feelings:
TR: “You have to go out and study, practice and do your job, that’s real life….I can’t use primal at all. This idea of fixing myself is terrible; my way of being is [who I am].” [Bracketed was inaudible on audio]
He said that he didn’t like that Janov had a fixed idea about how people should be, for example that female’s always “need a man” or that “He doesn’t like intellectual people.” He said it was intolerant. He also commented how things were sometimes not discussed fully or communicated well at the Center.
INT: Would you recommend primal therapy to anybody?
TR: I would be cautious about it and warn people about it.
When asked about whether he would recommend primal therapy for depression or anxiety:
TR: …opening up your defenses and looking at all that stuff will actually made you more anxious and more depressed…you’re going to be more anxious you’re going to be more depressed… I knew people who didn’t get better and ended up killing themselves… I knew 2 people… [it was in the] late 1990s.
…
TR: [before therapy] I read this study done of people with [a specific disorder]. It was a scientific way to look at [the disorder]; it is not like what Janov does
…
TR: I think talking to people is a very therapeutic thing in itself
INT: So your [disorder] was helped just by talking?
TR: Yes
INT: Was it helped by first line feelings?
TR: I don’t think so, I’m not sure, I think it got resolved before I got to those first line feelings. If the problem is there . It doesn’t even match the theory, [my disorder] disappeared before I got to first line feelings. Art never asked me any follow up.
… And then [Janov] asked me to write this article, so he is after his own ideas. It is so obvious when I think about it now… I wrote this article and then he said to me I need to talk about first line about it. It’s his idea, that it is first line related, so he wants me to write about it.
INT: Are there elements of primal that is like a cult?
TR: I think so, I think so, I remember being with another patient while I was in therapy and we were laughing about it because we said ‘okay we have Art and he has big white hair and he has this big white jeep, and then here we are cleaning this big place for nothing’, and we laughed.
INT: So it’s intelligent people knowing kind of what’s going on?
TR: Yeah, and we looked at each other, and I said “yeah it’s a cult and we are in it!” and we laughed. We could sense there were elements of it definitely.
…
Regarding feelings in therapy, he said:
TR: You feel kind of better, there’s something about it, I don’t think people would keep doing it, it’s like drugs. There is something good at one point, so that’s what your looking for.
…
INT: Were there personal attacks in therapy?
TR: There are definitely personal attacks, that’s how the things start [how feelings start in group]. It’s definitely [inaudible audio]
INT: Did you see or hear of unethical things like I did, or is it just me?
TR: No, I saw that too. I heard about therapists sleeping with their patients… 2 different therapists… one was fired but the other carried on working there for a while…
INT: But eventually both stopped working there?
TR: Right they stopped. With one, they knew about it, but they did not fire him on the spot, it just kind of got hidden and worked out. It was unethical once you know it is [going on]. What happened is that they controlled everything because I think they were really scared of the patient complaining.. Once they knew the ethical part would be to just fire that person, and that’s it, you just make it open and you just say this happened.
…The boundaries are very loose in this place… and it reminds me of patients working for the Center. Patients should just get the therapy and leave, and not get involved in the maintenance of the place.
…
INT: Did a therapist marry his patient?
TR: Yes
INT: He was able to continue being a therapist?
TR: Yes
[for a few years, this particular therapist no longer works at the center]
TR: I feel like if I put it out there, in the primal community, people will know when I talk and where its coming from. You would have to change lots of things for people not to recognize me, the reason I am reticent about going on the website is that I don’t want to get that c*** at me [referring to threatening letters received by the interviewer]. I want to be out of this community, and when I put it on the screen I’m not out of the community. I’m back in it because they will read it…and I don’t want to have any contact. My answer is to just let them believe what they want to believe. … If I start doing this I’m again in the primal community and it is the same thing that comes back at me and I’m sick of it.
…That’s how strong this place is, putting details on there, they will probably know who I am.…. This is what you deal with, I don’t want that to happen to me, and if I do speak up, they know your feelings. … that’s a sign of a cult.
…I don’t want to deal with what you are dealing with right now. That’s the thing, the threatening letters…It bothers me that it works, I know when I am silent I perpetuate this behavior, they’re winning, and I’m bothered by it because I want them to stop doing that bullshit so I have to find a way, because they are winning on me right now because I am silent, I know that.
… But I don’t know if I’m ready to do what your doing, it’s a lot.
INT: They have much less power than we think.
TR: Yes, I believe that too
… I am still in contact with someone who is still in primal and I never mention to him I don’t believe in it anymore, I say I’m not going to feel my feelings anymore. When he talks about it, I just listen like a friend.
…
INT: Did you find people to be judgmental in primal?
TR: Its intolerance
…
INT: What about people using Primal intuition?
TR: Oh yes, they have an idea of where you should go [in your feelings], what it’s all about, and when you don’t do it…
INT: Even patients do that?
TR: Oh yes, you get into that position of what you are not doing. I had a trainee who was doing that with me and saying “that’s your stuff” and it got to me like I’m not doing it right.
…There’s lots of thing about group in which they watch each other to see if somebody is really going for it.
INT: I never wanted to get involved in that…
TR: Yeah its like somebody is attacking you when they are saying something like that so you become a victim and say I’m going for my feelings then, or you attack back and say this person is not going for their feelings.
…
INT: You know that trainee you mentioned earlier who said “it’s your stuff” to you? You know what’s really sad about that is: probably a couple of years before he or she said that, that probably happened to him.
TR: Yes, your completely right. It’s a perpetuation of.., yeah
…[following this process of being told 'it's your stuff' and then turning it into childhood feelings] then you were kind of accepted in the group
… Its just almost impossible because you go there and try to talk about the stuff you want to talk about, and it’s not what they want, and then your not part of the group anymore. I didn’t want to go there because it just felt something is wrong. I’m thinking this, and those people are saying that its wrong, and I should feel my feelings and that won’t go away. But I was so, I found myself more sure of who I was and they couldn’t take that away from me.
… I came out of my own therapy because I was doing the same thing over and over. And this time I would not feel better afterwards.
… Primal people are kind of merciless, like when they go for their feeling watch out because… [they attack (inaudible audio)]
… once you get out of the primal community you’re like wow, something was wrong; you just get immune to this. I think for me I accepted that because in my family it was like that.
INT: For my first week, I was protected from that, I remember [my therapist] showing [a senior therapist] how my face had changed, but that could have been just confirmation bias or relaxation from endorphins,
TR: Yeah endorphins, I get that biking, its cheaper!
INT: That’s the thing about primal therapy, if there is some benefit it’s still too expensive
TR: Its VERY expensive
INT: Yeah, for the benefit that you get. There are cheaper psychologists available with Ph.D.s rather than psych assistants. They may be better for people because I see primal theory as being a problem. There were free therapists available sometimes in college, and when I believed in primal, I would avoid that.
TR: Yeah!
INT: I did avoid them
TR: Me too!
…
INT: … They allow you to joke about it being like a religion or cult.
TR: YES! That’s true, that’s true [laughs]
INT: And they even joke about it
TR: So it means its okay…that’s why it’s powerful, it’s not this thing you can easily identify as a cult. You can still joke about it, it’s so weird.
INT: … you can be mad about [the senior therapists] all you want.
TR: You can come in and feel it.
INT: But you have to change it into feelings.
TR: That’s where the mess up starts, they would say something like: “you’re just going to HAVE to go for your feelings, and it will have to stop being with us”… There’s nothing wrong with what’s going on with the Center because its all feelings in the past. That’s to me where the mess up is.
…
INT: Was there anytime where you thought “I’m going to leave now” but you didn’t?
TR: Yes, early on it was. Art came in and told the therapist she had to change what she was doing. It was going well before that, and after I was just lost.
INT: How did you end up staying?
TR: I thought that “well I need to go for my feelings” and all of that is just feelings and I’ll get through it. I wanted to leave the training, I thought it was just crazy and it overwhelmed me. Also I felt I was getting in the clique.
…
INT: I remember being told in the training that we were a really good group now, not like the last lot.
TR: Yeah, Oh yeah, we got that too [a few years earlier]
…
TR: [regarding “it’s a feeling” as a therapeutic move] At one point you become like “Hey, I’m telling you something”
…
TR: I found that once I stopped [therapy] I could relate to other people better. That was a challenge. And I realized I have to stop doing this because I’m not going to go anywhere.
[With regards to TR’s initial fears to reveal the details of the interview online in the middle of this interview, permission was granted later by TR to reproduce this version of the write up of the interview in September 2007.]
